SOIL PH

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newton
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Re: SOIL PH

Post by newton » August 6th, 2013, 12:37 pm

Farhan Ahmed wrote:uptake of carbohydrates???
Yes sorry I should have explained it better ... the Micorrhiza (fungi) being minute attach themselves to the roots of the host plant. being so small yet spread out evenly they create a greater surface area, which facilitates better uptake of various essential minerals for the plant. in return the plant sends its manufactured carbohydrates (such as glucose and sucrose) from the leaves down to the roots directly into the fungi. thus creating a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Many plants are unable to access the phosphate and nitrogen in soils with a basic PH. It has been proven that the fungi allow plants to colonise nutrient poor sites such as pines in leaf litter because the fungi are able synthesise phosphate ions making them available to the plant. . They are also known to host nitrogen fixing bacteria which contribute a significant amount of nitrogen for the plants use.

That therefore is the primary reason why many acid loving plants require a looser structure of planting media.

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by Farhan Ahmed » August 6th, 2013, 1:02 pm

Right. Thanks

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by mikhurram » August 6th, 2013, 2:56 pm

"There is no such thing as right or wrong but thinking make it so"

The benefit of having this discussion is that we can learn and benefit. At times i might be wrong or others. This discussion can enable us to examine our positions and disregard theories taken for granted. A 2% solution of diluted sulphuric acid in water may seem strong but my experiment suggested it the other way around. As an experiment i have applied solution of 2ml sulphuric acid (pure concentrate) in 1 litre of water on my pot bound gardenias and they didn't suffer any side effects. On the contrary the leaves become more greener. Or my more expensive Gardenia Thunbergia i applied in the media first and later transplanted the gardenia after two days taking into account the changes in PH.

Those having doubt as an experiment may try it on gardenia florida available locally for Rs 50 each rather than applying it on more expensive plants. Or it may applied in the pot soil or bed and the plant can transplanted a day later.

We should also take into account the ph of our irrigation water which i believe is alkaline and frequent watering with it would raise the ph level despite making ammendents to the soil. One option would be to use stored rainwater during the current monsoon and 2nd option is using diluting sulphuric acid in water to lower the ph or making amendments to the soil which inevitably would take more time.

below is a link having interesting insights.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 29810.html

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by M Farooq » August 6th, 2013, 10:01 pm

mikhurram wrote:"There is no such thing as right or wrong but thinking make it so"

The benefit of having this discussion is that we can learn and benefit. At times i might be wrong or others. This discussion can enable us to examine our positions and disregard theories taken for granted. A 2% solution of diluted sulphuric acid in water may seem strong but my experiment suggested it the other way around. As an experiment i have applied solution of 2ml sulphuric acid (pure concentrate) in 1 litre of water on my pot bound gardenias and they didn't suffer any side effects. On the contrary the leaves become more greener. Or my more expensive Gardenia Thunbergia i applied in the media first and later transplanted the gardenia after two days taking into account the changes in PH.

Those having doubt as an experiment may try it on gardenia florida available locally for Rs 50 each rather than applying it on more expensive plants. Or it may applied in the pot soil or bed and the plant can transplanted a day later.

We should also take into account the ph of our irrigation water which i believe is alkaline and frequent watering with it would raise the ph level despite making ammendents to the soil. One option would be to use stored rainwater during the current monsoon and 2nd option is using diluting sulphuric acid in water to lower the ph or making amendments to the soil which inevitably would take more time.

below is a link having interesting insights.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 29810.html
I totally agree that the purpose of this forum is to learn from each other. And it is the debate process that makes the discussion more powerful and convincing. However, I still have serious issues with the above mentioned recipe because we don't have a complete picture of this recipe which seems to cure the yellowing of gardenias. You didn't mention how much of this 1 L solution you add to your pots (amount matters, right). Okay, let me share my concerns:

2 mL of concentrated sulfuric acid (95-98%) in 1 Liter water makes is 0.036 Molar sulfuric acid (0.2%). The calculated pH of this solution is 1.4. This is sufficient to kill any plant whatsoever, depending upon how much is added to the pots. Acid rains, which significantly damage large trees, usually have a pH of 3 (about 36 times weaker than 0.2% acid). That is the paper work.

Coming to the reality: You don't see any damage and in fact gardenia is happy with this treatment, it means that the starting sulfuric acid is not concentrated. And that's why I asked for a source (whether it is battery acid which is 30% acid or not?) for public's general knowledge.

Thanks,
Farooq

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by mikhurram » August 6th, 2013, 10:26 pm

The sulphuric acid used was not taken from a battery and is in concentrated form used in textile processing. There is no harm in applying it as an experiment to gardenia's pot bound available in nurseries around Rs 50 each. This recipe was told by a friend. initially i had reservations as to it may kill the plants but the results proved otherwise. Based on two successful trials, i now have made a can containing 25 litres of diluted sulphuric acid in water. Members interested may take a sample from this can.

All i can say is that there is no harm in trying it on common gardenias available at Rs 50 and i would stress that it is very important to check the ph before applying it. It should applied only to alkaline soil.

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by newton » August 7th, 2013, 3:53 am

Isnt it much more fun to cultivate gardenias or any other plant for that matter by recreating the type of soil media that they thrive in. It isnt difficult.

If this was not available then yes by all means follow that path but in doing so there is so much knowledge and techniques lost.... information and methods that can be easily followed and enjoyed by all. After all isnt that part of the pleasure for us gardeners to get our hands dirty and be masters of the soil.

I certainly would not want my grandchildren playing around with battery acid formulas. I would prefer to teach them all of my organic tips and methodology first.

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by mikhurram » August 21st, 2013, 11:42 am

Some current photos of Gardenia's which were given a diluted solution consisting of 2ml of Pure Sulphuric Acid concentrate in 1 litre of water two months ago. This solution is diluted and even if one touches the diluted solution, it causes no harm.

Another solution can be application of Coffee Grounds. Starbucks as a policy offers customers a wrapped package of used coffee grounds free of charge. In Pakistan Coffee speciality shops such as Gloria Jeans tend to throw away their used coffee grounds. Once i got a bag from their shop free of charge which were applied to palms trees and some to gardenia. It works also but takes time.

For a quicker solution i would recommend diluting Sulphuric acid with water.
Attachments
gardenia.jpg
Gardenia Florida which was directly given a dosage of diluted Sulphuric Acid.
thunbergia.jpg
Gardenia Thunbergia in which diluted solution was applied first to the soil and plant was transplanted later after 2 days.

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by Izhar » October 7th, 2013, 2:31 pm

Using Ferrous Sulfate and Ammonium Sulfate is safe and it also provides nutrients.

Ferrous Sulfate:
1 teaspoon in 2 liters water for cholorosis in annuals
1 tablespoon in 1 liter water for cholorosis in acid loving plants (Gardenia, Ixora, Azalea etc)

Ammonium Sulfate:
2-3 teaspoons in 2 liters water for cholorosis in annuals
2 tablespoon in 1 liter water for cholorosis in acid loving plants (Gardenia, Ixora, Azalea etc)

Using Sulfur is by far the most safest for plants, but it is slow.. A handful per square-feet, mixed with well rotted manure or compost..

Past weekend i bought 10kg of Sulfur and 5 kg Ammonium Sulfate, will be preparing beds for gardenias and annuals on coming weekend..

Sulfur (powder) is Rs.100/kg from Joria bazar Karachi
Ammonium Sulfate is Rs.70/kg

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by Muhammad Arif Khan » October 7th, 2013, 7:22 pm

LOWERING PH OF SOIL
Two materials commonly used for lowering the soil pH are aluminium sulphate and sulphur. These can be found at a garden supply centre. Aluminium sulphate will change the soil pH instantly because the aluminium produces the acidity as soon as it dissolves in the soil. Sulphur, however, requires some time for the conversion to sulphuric acid with the aid of soil bacteria. The conversion rate of the sulphur is dependent on the fineness of the sulphur, the amount of soil moisture, soil temperature and the presence of the bacteria. Depending on these factors, the conversion rate of sulphur may be very slow and take several months if the conditions are not ideal. For this reason, most people use the aluminium sulphate.
Both materials should be worked into the soil after application to be most effective. If these materials are in contact with plant leaves as when applied to a lawn, they should be washed off the leaves immediately after application or a damaging leaf burn may result. Take extreme care not to over-apply the aluminium sulphate or the sulphur.
You can use the following tables to calculate the application rates for both the aluminium/Iron sulphate and the sulphur. The rates are in pounds per 10 square feet for a loamy soil. Reduce the rate by one-third for sandy soils and increase by one-half for clays.

Pounds of Aluminium/Iron Sulphate to Lower the pH

Present pH Desired pH
XXX6.5 6.0 5.5 5.0 4.5
8.0 1.8 2.4 3.3 4.2 4.8 Pounds/10 square feet
7.5 1.2 2.1 2.7 3.6 4.2
7.0 0.6 1.2 2.1 3.0 3.6
6.5 - 0.6 1.5 2.4 2.7
6.0 - - 0.6 1.5 2.1

Pounds of Sulphur to Lower the Soil pH

Present pH Desired pH
XXX6.5 6.0 5.5 5.0 4.5
8.0 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 Pounds per 10 square feet
7.5 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6
7.0 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5
6.5 - 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4
6.0 - - 0.1 0.2 0.3


To avoid plant injury, don't exceed 2 pounds of sulphur per 100 square feet per application. Wait at least 3 months to make another application.
Aluminum sulfate and iron sulfate react more quickly with the soil than elemental sulfur. However, aluminum sulfate and iron sulfate must be applied at a 5 to 6 times greater rate. Do not apply more than 5 pounds per 100 square feet of aluminum or iron sulfate at any one time. Excessive amounts of these two sulfates can also injure plants.
Some types of fertilizers can help to acidify the soil and most of them are safe to apply. Acidifying fertilizers include ammonium sulfate, diammonium phosphate, monoammonium phosphate, urea, and ammonium nitrate. Read the label on the fertilizer bag to determine if it is an acidifying fertilizer.
Research suggests that wood chips as a surface mulch may actually allow greater nutrient absorption by some trees. Spread a layer about three inches thick at least out to the dripline. Each spring add more mulch to keep the depth at about three inches.

I hope this is ofsome help.
I am using it but now the problem is how to accurately measure the PH.
Arif

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Re: SOIL PH

Post by Nice » October 7th, 2013, 8:46 pm

Sir, what kind of wood we should use for these wood chips and from where we can get these(wood chips) in Lahore.

Regards
Nasir

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