Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Cultivation Guide for various Bulbous Plants in Our Climate

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KBW
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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by KBW » September 8th, 2013, 11:01 pm

Wrote this in Narcisus thread. Quoting it here as it might be more relevant here....
regards
KBW wrote:Most true bulbs form next year's bud during fall on previous year, before shedding the leaves. It is therefore very important to feed them well and provide them conducive conditions after they have flowered. If the bud has been formed, it will bloom next year any way except in very inhospitable conditions. That is the reason that most true bulbs flower first year in Pakistan but neglect after flowering and more importantly, sudden change in weather (hot climate) does not allow them to form a bud for next year.

NOTE: What I have written above pertains to true bulbs only and does not concern rhizomes, tubers, tuberous roots and corms.

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by Hamad » September 9th, 2013, 12:32 am

KBW wrote:
BTW, the first hardiness table that describes the hardiness zones looks a bit strange to me. Could you please check it's authenticity / source? Another vital factor that one may like to keep in mind is the natural habitat of a bulbous plant. Himalayan / central asian mountains and South African mountain are a home to a large variety of bulbous plants but they do not have a similar climate. Therefore, a true bulb for example, which has its roots in Himalayan mountains might not behave the same way as another true bulb originating from South Africa
I have checked the table after your post and confirmed the hardiness zones are correct, I don't think there is anything wrong with the table, and if you know why we initiated this effort then it answer your concern.

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by Hamad » September 9th, 2013, 2:15 am

KBW wrote:
Munir wrote:Hamad, have you recieved any detailed input from KBW for your project regarding Tubers? If not, do remind him, since he looks to be one of the more knowledgeable & experienced person here in this field,as also in many other aspects of gardening.Better hurry up, lest/before he takes another break.
Munir bhai, I will do whatever I can in areas where I have practical experience. Giving an advise to someone is a big responsibility which I try to fulfill by sharing my personal practical experience, only, if that could be of any help to the other person.

BTW, fortunately or unfortunately we are living in an era of genetic engineering which on one side has given us unbeleivable results conversely we also experience vast uncertainity in plant behaviour. Most of these hybrids developed in labs / controlled environment do not get sufficient exposure to nature and do not develp their own natural systems to fight abnormalities which are a part of nature. They might not even inherit all traits that their parents used to possess. So it's quite a fluke growing these hybrids because all of them may not respond the same way as their ancestors were known to perform. This is the dilemma. One simple solution that I follow is to buy relatively old hybrids which are there in market for at least 5-10 years and have been grown successfully in different parts of the world, specially Pakistan. You know it is too tempting and easy to buy these hybrids on various websites nowadays but we must know that all of them will never perform in our environment as mentioned in the website.

I do not believe in generalisation and have wasted lot of money in the past following the generalised advises given in book, written in some other country having an absolutely different climate. One better way could be to share the performance of a particular cultivar of a particular specie of bulbous plant in the relevant section so that members know about the performance of a particular cultivar. Another easy way is to grow those bulbs only which are there in market since many years (old varieties). But if we want authentic input, we will have to go specie by specie and with that, cultivar by cultivar.

With regard to breaks, I have been traveling a lot recently and now trying to settle down at a new plance. Have already started updating the rose database and will keep doing as and when I get time. Today, I was free as my fishing trip was cancelled and could spare time for gardening.
regards
KBW with due respect, what you have explained in your above post is quite disappointing for all tuber lovers, obviously we cant gain experience without getting our hands dirty, its your experience that made you able to talk today, to reach 10th floor you have to through all the floors from 0 to 9 there is no short cut for that I m afraid, to learn swimming I need to get into water, later I could say water was hot or cold and you have learned after spending time and money but you cant say you wasted your time and money because it has not been wasted rather you achieved/learned, there is a very good saying in Urdu "APNAY MARAY BAGAIR JANAT KAHAN NASEEB HOTI HAY, JANAT PANAY KAY LIAY APNA MARNA ZAROORI HAY". with your such message learners like myself will lose hope and might think they are also wasting their time which is not good, instead we can collectively put our efforts together so that out of thousands we could easily make a list of viable bulbs in 10's digit, and that's what we did.

and going forward we are trying to write down the details of each plant in our list in a very simple and understandable way so that a novice/beginner like myself may understand, parallel to that we are trying to understand what is a bulb, its types and what kind of climatic conditions are require to grow and if we can mimic those conditions with little effort to get better results like chilling ,etc. But all of above with regards to our climate, means what would be viable for us.

But as you tried to tell in your post that we need to get the specie and cultivar details before we go for any bulb then this is something like "NA 9 MAN TALE HO GA NA RADA NACHAY GI" again something impossible!, you tell me how it is possible to get all the details for an item that we purchase, do our local suppliers keep trail?, do they ever knew cultivar names and species for an item that they are offering?, my answers is a big NO they don't have a clue, all that they know is general information, like if they are offering a Lily, they may able to tell if its a Oriental or Asiatic but they would never be able to tell other details that you mentioned and even from abroad like UK not all the vendors provide the cultivar and species details.

As you suggested that we should try old hybrid varieties, I don't understand that how a hybrid could remain a true hybrid for so many years because "KHORA AND KHADA CAN PRODUCE A KHACHAR BUT A KHACHAR CANT PRODUCE MORE KHACHARS" and in the market new hybrids take the place of old once and the suppliers buy new/fresh supplies every year and most of them import hybrids and the international vendors don't keep old hybrids all the time.

The only way we can keep bulbs true for so many years to come, is to use our local bulbs like Gul-e-nargis etc

On a lighter note, neither we enlisted all the bulbs available nor we will try them but viable are a fraction and today what you have contributed or posted is just because of all that experience that you attained.

Again its good to share information but what you might have tried was out of box but in our post or listed items are believed to be in the box or may on the border line, we are looking forward with a positive attitude and InshAllah with the will of Allah I m quite positive to achieve good results out of that list, it may not prove to be 100% true but most of it would be.

I tried to my level best to explain in a good way, I hope neither I heart your feeling nor being sarcastic and all the above discussion was on a lighter note and your contribution is requested to our venture, and I also hope that your experience would be of great help :)

Hamad
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Re: Bulbousplant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by Hamad » September 9th, 2013, 2:27 am

rafique wrote:Really commendable effort Hammad sb. I would like to konw the source and athenticity of the information?
And is this information is available for other cities of pakistan
sure its for all of us, its a really good site and you can get the details for any city or place and forecast on micro level, just type your city name with country in search bar and you will get all the details, please find the following link to check the authenticity of the source and if there would be any issues/doubts do notify me.

http://weatherspark.com/

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by M Farooq » September 9th, 2013, 4:12 am

I am not visiting the forum regularly these days, but from the first glance, it seems that we are becoming more and more sensitive about each other's views. Why is this so? Everyone is doing great work, but lets be more open towards advices/ suggestions and even criticism.

Regards,
Farooq

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by Hamad Ahmed Kisana » September 9th, 2013, 7:47 am

Hamad wrote: we are looking forward with a positive attitude and InshAllah with the will of Allah I m quite positive to achieve good results out of that list, it may not prove to be 100% true but most of it would be.
great..it is called "JAZBA"which helps man to achieve any goal.you well said that experiments are necessary to achieve the results..if i am not wrong and being sarcastic then i will say that honorable sir KBW sb is in age when he has done all possible experiments and now he is enjoying their fruit.but it is not applicable on new generation.we are living in global village so how we can stick to old hybrids and heirlooms why not experiment new and latest hybrids and get good results.if they can keep our tropical plants in their cold weather then we can keep their winter hardy plants here in hot summers ..although it is difficult but for enjoyment and experiments which are basic source of a good life.we are gaining too much after joining the forum i was at zero level when i joined this forum and internet world now ALHAMDULIALLAH i am able to talk with a skilled gardener here at local level..so if we say that experience is everything then where from we get experience.?..
even a bit of information is very valuable here at forum.now take plants database whenever any one search a botanical name of plant which is present in our database then Google displays our forum in search results.so it is promoting our forum ...we can continue this topic but it is useless so we should continue to learn more and more from every available source.here i will quote words of hamad bhai.
I hope neither I heart your feeling nor being sarcastic and all the above discussion was on a lighter note and your contribution is requested to our venture, and I also hope that your experience would be of great help :)

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by KBW » September 9th, 2013, 8:17 am

Hamad wrote:But as you tried to tell in your post that we need to get the specie and cultivar details before we go for any bulb then this is something like "NA 9 MAN TALE HO GA NA RADA NACHAY GI" again something impossible!, you tell me how it is possible to get all the details for an item that we purchase, do our local suppliers keep trail?, do they ever knew cultivar names and species for an item that they are offering?, my answers is a big NO they don't have a clue, all that they know is general information, like if they are offering a Lily, they may able to tell if its a Oriental or Asiatic but they would never be able to tell other details that you mentioned and even from abroad like UK not all the vendors provide the cultivar and species details.
It is not as difficult as you have made it look like. Those members who have experience of growing certain cultivars can share the same with others. In fact this what you are trying to attempt in another thread. I am only asking this to be done with more precision, ie, going to the extent of a particular cultivar and not by specie in general. If you want to achieve excellence than there is a price to paid in terms of time / research work. And no one is suggesting that till the time such a research is not completed, people are forbidden to buy any bulbs. I am just suggesting a possible course of action which in my view will minimise loss and avoid the frustration that one suffers after going through such an ordeal.

Hamad wrote:As you suggested that we should try old hybrid varieties, I don't understand that how a hybrid could remain a true hybrid for so many years because "KHORA AND KHADA CAN PRODUCE A KHACHAR BUT A KHACHAR CANT PRODUCE MORE KHACHARS" and in the market new hybrids take the place of old once and the suppliers buy new/fresh supplies every year and most of them import hybrids and the international vendors don't keep old hybrids all the time.

The only way we can keep bulbs true for so many years to come, is to use our local bulbs like Gul-e-nargis etc
Sir, most plants that we see today are hybrids and only very few are genuine specie plants. The only difference is that old hybrids have settled down, have learnt their lesson from mother nature and are therefore more capable of bearing the hardships posed by nature. The new hybrids are still evovling and may / may not be stable at this stage. It is very much possible that a brand new hybrid is absolutely stable. By I have been practicing what I have suggested for many years now and just shared the same with others. It does not apply to bulbs alone, it is a principal that I follow for most plants that I grow. But that's me. I am by no means trying to stop others from buying any hybrids which are new, not at all.

Hamad wrote:
KBW with due respect, what you have explained in your above post is quite disappointing for all tuber lovers, obviously we cant gain experience without getting our hands dirty, its your experience that made you able to talk today, to reach 10th floor you have to through all the floors from 0 to 9 there is no short cut for that I m afraid, to learn swimming I need to get into water, later I could say water was hot or cold and you have learned after spending time and money but you cant say you wasted your time and money because it has not been wasted rather you achieved/learned, there is a very good saying in Urdu "APNAY MARAY BAGAIR JANAT KAHAN NASEEB HOTI HAY, JANAT PANAY KAY LIAY APNA MARNA ZAROORI HAY". with your such message learners like myself will lose hope and might think they are also wasting their time which is not good, instead we can collectively put our efforts together so that out of thousands we could easily make a list of viable bulbs in 10's digit, and that's what we did.

and going forward we are trying to write down the details of each plant in our list in a very simple and understandable way so that a novice/beginner like myself may understand, parallel to that we are trying to understand what is a bulb, its types and what kind of climatic conditions are require to grow and if we can mimic those conditions with little effort to get better results like chilling ,etc. But all of above with regards to our climate, means what would be viable for us.

On a lighter note, neither we enlisted all the bulbs available nor we will try them but viable are a fraction and today what you have contributed or posted is just because of all that experience that you attained.

Again its good to share information but what you might have tried was out of box but in our post or listed items are believed to be in the box or may on the border line, we are looking forward with a positive attitude and InshAllah with the will of Allah I m quite positive to achieve good results out of that list, it may not prove to be 100% true but most of it would be.
Hamad sb, I am utterly surprised at your argument. It appears that you have failed to grasp the soul of my communication and have, somehow, taken it as a criticism on your effort which it is certainly not. Just a line "that I do not agree with your line of thinking" would have been enough and it would have been perfectly fine with me as I have no intentions to convince other or to convert them to my point of view. I am just sharing what happened to me and that's it.

BTW, what did you expect me to write? I only comment on a subject when I have personal experience about it. I refrain from giving advises most of the time and share my experience only; whether good or bad, right or wrong. And when I do that, it is not at all aimed at telling other members that this is the best way of doing a certain thing, and that you guys know nothing and I am here to teach you. NO, not at all. It just to share that I did this in this manner, this is my line of thinking and this is what happened to me. If someone feels that there is some guidance or lesson for him, good enough. And if someone feels that there is nothing profound in what I have suggested than he is absolutely at will to discard it and look forward to other options. But I have to describe my experience honestly, as it happened.

Today, I very honestly shared my experience about Gerberas in "My Gerberas" thread. After reading such like posts, I am suspecting that someone might come out with this argument that KBW doesn't want anyone on this forum to enjoy Gerberas, is discouraging other members from experimenting and is trying to teach others as if he is the only experienced person around and others are just wasing their time. PLEASE NOTE that I have no such intentions. I just shared what happened to me and that's all.

Please understand that if other person is not towing your line of argument than he is not necessarily criticizing you or trying to prove that you know nothing. He is just sharing his point of view which happens to be different from yours. That's it. Please be tolerant of other person's point of view and do not think negatively. By giving an argument which is not entirely in line with your's, no one is trying to belittle your effort. He is just trying to convey what he feels about that particular thing.

Lastly, when we undertake a project, it is our money which is at stake and we have full right to spend it any way we feel like. I wish you all the best in your ventures and would feel genuinely happy on your success. Just be a little tolerant of other person's point of view and that's it.
Hamad wrote:I tried to my level best to explain in a good way, I hope neither I heart your feeling nor being sarcastic and all the above discussion was on a lighter note and your contribution is requested to our venture, and I also hope that your experience would be of great help :)

Hamad
Sir, you must be joking when you write this.


Best regards and happy gardening

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by mikhurram » September 9th, 2013, 10:04 am

Initially it was not my intention to comment on the post after viewing some of the replies I feel I need to give a frank opinion based on my experience. I would endorse Mr. Farooq point of view that we need to be tolerant of suggestions/criticism or point of view raised by others. Only through logic backed by concrete facts should one argue his/her point of view that too in a tone without hurting the feeling of others.

I feel that the following points in quotes raised by KBW are very valid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“The beauty of bulb growing lies in the understanding of what can be successfully grown in various Pakistani climates and not to get too tempted to grow everything beautiful that one comes across in catalogues / on various websites.

Another vital factor that one may like to keep in mind is the natural habitat of a bulbous plant. Himalayan / central asian mountains and South African mountain are a home to a large variety of bulbous plants but they do not have a similar climate.

One better way could be to share the performance of a particular cultivar of a particular specie of bulbous plant in the relevant section so that members know about the performance of a particular cultivar. Another easy way is to grow those bulbs only which are there in market since many years (old varieties). But if we want authentic input, we will have to go specie by specie and with that, cultivar by cultivar. “
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Novice or members new to gardening should be thankful that KBW sahib is giving these advise based on experience as the old adage goes that there is no substitute for experience.

It’s natural that someone takes up gardening initially fired with enthusiam he or she would want to try out different varieties but only to realize after wasting a colossal amount on bulbs that never adaptable to our environment. This is something natural and l have gone through a similar process years ago and myself like KBW ending up spending significant amount of bulbs like Allium Globemaster, Frittalaries and countless others etc that were never adaptable for our environment and only to rue later that it was simply not worth experimenting or spending.

Lastly whenever we post any visual or guide we need to consider if it can prove to be useful practically. Take for instance the visual bulb guide posted in the first or second page which in hindsight would also be likely to be endorsed by eminent publications like “Gardeners World” that the sowing depth for Allium Globe Master should be 20 cm. Try this practically and i can say with a certainty that one would end up with a rotten bulb after a month. I ended up with a rotten bulb of Allium after placing it a depth suggested by websites around 2007. Even for Hyacinths the depth is bit excessive. A good rule of thumb that works well generally for most of the bulbs rather getting into the specifics of each planting depth of bulbs is to plant bulbs at a depth twice the width of the bulb.

I have yet to grasp the utility of the hardiness / temperatures tables put forth which i feel practically have serve no value considering that extremes in our weather conditions pertaining to our plains in which to keep alive most of the plants/bulbs is quite a challenge. At one end we experience the hottest weather during May, June, July and at other end is the extreme cold conditions during the winters months of December & January.

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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by Hamad » September 9th, 2013, 11:48 am

again with due respect to our members

at first place when we started a list of viable tubers of Pakistan, the soul effort for this was to help everyone and to guide in such a way that they would not end up in wasting time and money, so when we say or talk about some bulbs will not be successful in our climate, then at first place this line is not valid because we are not talking about bulbs as general but we picked up those who survive here and regarding Allium if you check the details of allium its mentioned that small alliums could be tried but big variety are not successful in our climate, all this discussion is with regards to our climate so now we are in second phase, in our first phase we already compiled the list of viable bulbs now we are trying to collect the details.

and again with your experience you came to know the allium may not survive at a certain depth, and to start with we have to follow a planting depth guide and later we could say it was true or false, and I have read and experienced (first hand) if someone is not sure about the planting depth just plant them few inches deep and the bulb will adjust its depth according to its need when the root system will develop, I planted some bulbs at a different depth and they dug them up and found them at a different level. they may rot because of several other factors.

KWB again with due respect, we are at starting phase and collecting the details for species and cultivars may some at a far later stage, and for some items there are hundreds of cultivars and species which is not possible to keep track, we respect your experience, but my point was also taken wrong because what I was trying to tell here was, when we talk about bulbs in general or at international level its a different story and your post fits very well in that context but in our viable list and this thread, I mentioned at different stages that our efforts are totally with regards to our climate and that is why I tried to mention the climate and relate the zone according to our climate, and in this context if we say that bulbs don't survive only then its out of context matter.

and with due respect again to all the members I tried my level best to say, if we want to gain some experience then obviously we have to try and again we would not try everything but will confine to our list and when you learn, you don't lose anything but gain its a win win situation.

Hamad
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Re: Bulbous plant’s Guide and FAQs

Post by khabbab » September 9th, 2013, 2:15 pm

Guys, be cool. Let's concentrate on the technical discussion. A new reader will not be attracted, if you know what i mean :)

We can also break down this topic into planting guide, FAQ and list of viable tubers list. It is already 3 pages with lots of stuff remaining.

The FAQ should reflect those questions coming in the minds of pakistani(or any other hot climate native) newbie or intermediate gardeners. Some examples are following:
- How can i save dahlia tubers?
- Should i go for dahlia tubers or cuttings?
- Why my amaryllis (hippeastream) is not producing offsets?
- Should i buy a bulb with a bud or buy a bulb without a flower bud
etc etc.

If we create one topic for each tuber/bulb then its related FAQ, planting depth, DO's, DONTs can be included in that topic. It will help for example a newbie asking some questions about a particular bulb. If we go into this direction then we can start with the famous ones like dahlia, glad, freesia etc.

Suggestions and inputs will be appreciated.
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