Suggestions on Cataloguing Pakistani Garden Plants

[Farhan Ahmed]

As to the point of "sorry, we are busy" attitude...the fact is that everyone is busy, and all of us are doing very serious business totally unrelated to gardening. It all depends on interest. In short:

Matti ki mohabbat mein hum ashufta saron nay
Woh qarz utaray hain jo wajib bhi nahin thay

So please participate, if you guys like to see the list grow. Thanks.

Regards.

Essence of volunteer-ship should be respected. .

[khabbab]

This catalogue should be for easy consultation of gardeners of all level.
I, as an example of a user would be interested only in fruit/ornamental trees, bushes, flowering plants and vegetables/herbs.
Say I want to plant a fruit tree of certain size in Lahore, I should search
Trees > fruit trees and select Imly the data should tell me if it can grow and fruit in Lahore, the time to fruit and cultivation requirements,
I want a flowering tree I go to tree > flowering tree, should give a list of flowering trees under common name and then botanical name.The data should the detail information including areas where it will flourish/bloom.
Hippeastrum, Daylilies and Glads would be under flowering perinials > Bulbs/Rhizomes/corms.
Niaz bo (sweet basil) will be under Vegetables > Herbs
A data listed under botanical name is of little use to me, for that the search engines are already there.
Arif

Arif sb your suggestion is in fact excellent. I am not sure whether it is easy for the previous 200 entries to be classified this way but next time in the title one can include this info in the subject line like Tree: Delonix regia (Flame of the Forest). Lets see what others have to say.

After adding the feature of hashtage, this problem will resolve. So an imli tree entry will have hashtags #fruit tree #lahore #deciduous etc and user will choose hashtags of #fruit tree and #lahore. I intend to add this feature tomorrow if all goes well.

One more thing about flora database is that the html format though user friendly for reader but HTML tables have low or no SEO. So google search will not reach the flora database, can some one confirm this for the oldest entry hopefully indexed by google?

[M Farooq]

So please participate, if you guys like to see the list grow. Thanks.

Regards.

Essence of volunteer-ship should be respected. :-).

Totally agree because it is an invitation to participate not a complusion. However, a subtle difference in any volunteering case is that once someone agrees to participate for a cause and then does very little then the volunteering team members do reserve a right for a reminder. Any large project is of inferior quality without concerted team work whether it is a million dollar project or purely volunteer work.

[M Farooq]

This catalogue should be for easy consultation of gardeners of all level.
I, as an example of a user would be interested only in fruit/ornamental trees, bushes, flowering plants and vegetables/herbs.
Say I want to plant a fruit tree of certain size in Lahore, I should search
Trees > fruit trees and select Imly the data should tell me if it can grow and fruit in Lahore, the time to fruit and cultivation requirements,
I want a flowering tree I go to tree > flowering tree, should give a list of flowering trees under common name and then botanical name.The data should the detail information including areas where it will flourish/bloom.
Hippeastrum, Daylilies and Glads would be under flowering perinials > Bulbs/Rhizomes/corms.
Niaz bo (sweet basil) will be under Vegetables > Herbs
A data listed under botanical name is of little use to me, for that the search engines are already there.
Arif

Arif sb your suggestion is in fact excellent. I am not sure whether it is easy for the previous 200 entries to be classified this way but next time in the title one can include this info in the subject line like Tree: Delonix regia (Flame of the Forest). Lets see what others have to say.

After adding the feature of hashtage, this problem will resolve. So an imli tree entry will have hashtags #fruit tree #lahore #deciduous etc and user will choose hashtags of #fruit tree and #lahore. I intend to add this feature tomorrow if all goes well.

One more thing about flora database is that the html format though user friendly for reader but HTML tables have low or no SEO. So google search will not reach the flora database, can some one confirm this for the oldest entry hopefully indexed by google?

The idea is great! I think Kisana mentioned that google works.

[newton]

ASA

Im not an knowledgeable in computer programming or software but I have seen other websites (not forums) where a self selection process including name/leaf/flower/season/colour etc is used to identify plants relating to a given characteristic. unsure if the data is entered individually or through multitasking a standardised table formula (or if it could even be applied to this forum).

Examples include the following

http://leafsnap.com/
A free mobile app helps identify tree species from photographs of their leaves and contains high-resolution images of their flowers, fruit, petiole, seeds, and bark. Developed by two American Universities and currently catalogues American trees. (probably developed by a team of researchers and updated by data entry clerks) Similar other apps include NatureGate, iPflanzen and Googles Goggles, (identifies dogs as cats though) couldn't key entry clerks multitask data forms for automatic inclusion into our system.

http://www.botanicalkeys.co.uk/flora/content/SEARCH.ASP
Presents the customer/visitor with a questionnaire on the characteristics of the plant to identify. You fill in a data form and press search, the database then throws up matching plants found. Interestingly they claim you can obtain a check-list of plants from a particular habitat or even flowers of a particular colour to grow in your garden. (again a multi agency, multi clerk entry system probably).

http://www.shootgardening.co.uk/plant/identify
A sophisticated single click search table that returns some impressive data/photo results, does have commercial input orientated and written into the platform of their own independent website.

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Ive noted though that this rather pleasent forum is active and operating mainly through the hard work and input of a few key individuals. As I have seen on similar forums in the past should the key individuals be unable to maintain the time and resources required then inevitably the forum deteriorates, falling into disrepute. However when evolved with new technological advances as they progress, they present a formidable and influential resource.

Appears our constraints at the moment seem to be

* Lack of data entry/plant identification volunteers, - more required and/or the format of data entry simplified if possible. However, consider, do we really need to re-invent the wheel, cant we link to a source that already has plants listed similar to (or even newly developed for us) like http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/garden.html. There is not one for Pakistan Given the lack of such (and in fact the middle east for Islamic/desert/tropical garden design principles) this could prove to be enormously popular resource as an offshoot of this forum.

I don't know if it would be practical or workable etc but what If a separate website is developed with the search engine similar to shootgardening where different nurseries and suppliers can list the plants availability for a small fee, contributing to the website and the data entry clerks. Could the forum then not link into the website and maintain its freedom from commercial pressures, continuing the friendships and educations.

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If the interest is there from the forum then I guess the start off would be a business plan with a concise SWOT analysis and website development. Given the depth and breadth of the recent increases in hobby gardening I can see it being a valid, well used resource, at the same time resolving our current dilemma of plant identification and data input. There would be some initial costs involved (relatively minimal and I will set that up if required) in respect of webhosting and domain name registrations etc. If commision paid data entry clerks or multi tasking table entry volunteers are used then the lists can be accurate and up and running fairly quickly. ***From my perspective though it would have to continue as a not for profit/charitable resource***.


Regards
Ifzaal

[M Farooq]

ASA


*****************************************

Ive noted though that this rather pleasent forum is active and operating mainly through the hard work and input of a few key individuals. As I have seen on similar forums in the past should the key individuals be unable to maintain the time and resources required then inevitably the forum deteriorates, falling into disrepute. However when evolved with new technological advances as they progress, they present a formidable and influential resource.

Appears our constraints at the moment seem to be

* Lack of data entry/plant identification volunteers, - more required and/or the format of data entry simplified if possible. However, consider, do we really need to re-invent the wheel, cant we link to a source that already has plants listed similar to (or even newly developed for us) like http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/garden.html. There is not one for Pakistan :idea: :idea: :idea: Given the lack of such (and in fact the middle east for Islamic/desert/tropical garden design principles) this could prove to be enormously popular resource as an offshoot of this forum.

I don't know if it would be practical or workable etc but what If a separate website is developed with the search engine similar to shootgardening where different nurseries and suppliers can list the plants availability for a small fee, contributing to the website and the data entry clerks. Could the forum then not link into the website and maintain its freedom from commercial pressures, continuing the friendships and educations.

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Ifzaal

The suggestions given above are very nice (with little bit of disagreement over the commercial and other high-tech aspects). However Munir sb and and you have recognized the main issues. Some background...

1. One of the key things before the idea came into reality was that the pictures should be from Pakistan and nowhere else. This meant that pictures would not be lifted from the web.

2. If you read the first post, it contained the same idea as you stated, that the info need not be repeated if a link exists but our Munir sb and others liked the table version so let it be the way it is now. It is convenient for the reader. So re-invention of the wheel is not an issue but a matter of convenience.

3. If you happen to visit Flowers of India, you may notice the at times flower colours/ shape is slightly different the way it appears in Pakistan. A prime example is that of Pandanus odoratissimus. Thus there is a need for local plants with pictures and ID.

4.Flowers of India's approach is excellent because that is a true example of highly vibrant team of volunteers who do other stuff rather than botany as their profession. The guy who originated this idea was a physicist. However the deal or the assumption in this forum was that interested people (volunteers) would provide pictures. None of us is a botanist but all of us share a common trait - we seem to appreciate plants. The process in Flower of India is as follows:

(a). Volunteer A takes the picture of a given plant (usually 3-4 good shots, flowers, leaves, seeds etc) adds the place of picture. This picture is posted on their folder of unidentified plant.
(b). A volunteer B (they have a volunteer team of hobbyists, botany university of college teachers, students etc) identifies it and writes a brief note about it.
(c). The website is self correcting like Wikipedia. If B makes a makes some mistakes, a more qualified reader corrects it.

The dilemma here in the forum is that step 4(a) has a lack of activity- the key reason is that we have very few people (10 at the most) who are active contributors. They cannot have the camera all the time nor it is a compulsion on anyone. However my little complaint is for those who had promised in the beginning to help like our politicians but forgot it soon to donate pictures. Since step 4(b) and 4(c) are totally dependent on the first step 4(a). Things don't move forward. We can say in scientific terms that step 4a is a "rate-limiting step".

Hope it helps the readers.

[newton]

This catalogue should be for easy consultation of gardeners of all level. I, as an example of a user would be interested only in fruit/ornamental trees, bushes, flowering plants and vegetables/herbs.

Say I want to plant a fruit tree of certain size in Lahore, I should search Trees > fruit trees and select Imly the data should tell me if it can grow and fruit in Lahore, the time to fruit and cultivation requirements,
I want a flowering tree I go to tree > flowering tree, should give a list of flowering trees under common name and then botanical name.The data should the detail information including areas where it will flourish/bloom.
Hippeastrum, Daylilies and Glads would be under flowering perinials > Bulbs/Rhizomes/corms. Niaz bo (sweet basil) will be under Vegetables > Herbs

A data listed under botanical name is of little use to me, for that the search engines are already there.
Arif

Somewhere I'm sure I've been technically overwhelmed and my apologies for that, but my thinking was that if a "drill down data table" could be incorporated then it would meet the needs of the users as mentioned above and secondly with the nurseries input we could have the required photographs names etc and these could be supplemented with our members own photographs, thus speeding up the process, in the meantime generating support from our government institutions even.

The commercial aspect would simply be a list of nurseries supplying the plants in a given area with the prices they charge, but yes I appreciate your point of how commercialisation can bring about its own problems.

Trying to think again "out of the box". Does the Indian system operate more effectively because in addition to the volunteers they have a more active input from both institutional and homeopathic sources. ?

Regards
Ifzaal

[M Farooq]

Trying to think again "out of the box". Does the Indian system operate more effectively because in addition to the volunteers they have a more active input from both institutional and homeopathic sources. ?

I appreciate your outside-the-box questions. The link below will clarify your queries. I dream of the same spirit among our Pakistani counterparts. One day inshallah this will come true.

http://www.flowersofindia.net/misc/credits.html

The following is copied from their credit section. (Hindi text has been changed to Urdu )

The two of us started out as just laypersons, interested in flowers. So, identifying every flower we saw, was a daunting task. And seeing flowers in all parts of India was a more difficult one. Over time, Flowers of India has grown into a community effort, with lots of people contributing in various ways. We can safely quote Urdu poet Sahir Ludhianvi to describe the Flowers of India effort:

Mein akayla hi chala tha jaanib e manzil mugger, log atay gaye aur kaar' van banta gaya
(I started all alone towards the goal/(but) people kept joining and it slowly turned into a caravan)
The Flowers of India site has now grown considerably since its birth in 2005, and so has the number of people associated with the site. Now the Flowers of India community is indeed a caravan of flower-crazy people. It involves many independent footloose flower-hunters, who travel to various parts of the country and capture the local flora in their cameras, which eventually gets added to the site. These flower-hunters come from various walks of life. They are enthusiastic trekkers who dare to go where few have ventured before. They are family-walas who turn their hill-station vacation into flower-hunting trips. They are houswives who get their taxis stopped in middle of nowhere because they spotted a flower on the roadside. They are students whose thirst for new things and adventure is never-quenching.
There are lots of people who regularly watch the site for unidentified flowers and keep sending their feedback. Their contribution is enormous, since identifying every wildflower that we come across is certainly no easy job.


Hope it helps the readers to appreciate the power and quality of teamwork.

[khabbab]

To increase the volunteers for flora database, there are few things which will improve things:

1- Forum is known mostly by internet users only, they get to know about this forum through google search or from my blog or from facebook. There are lot of non-internet-users who can contribute very well, they are skilled but they do not use internet much. For example there are lot of gardeners in lahore who do not use internet but they have their gardening circles and part of gardening societies etc. This can only improve with some one having good PR capabilities (which i lack ). Also, A due credit to the volunteer is must to attract more.

2- Probably we also did not ask explicitly anyone to be a volunteer!!!! My point is, it should be an open announcement that we need volunteers. Right now, only those readers reading this topic will know that. This sentence should spread like a plague "Be a contributor to pakistan first online flowers encyclopadia". We can even post it in newspapers and other media.

[newton]

That is indeed a very good spirit, my thoughts are to explore the possibilities of streamlining and improving our databanks so that both the way data Is input and the way it is accessed by readership is simpler and quicker.

The flowers of India website appears to be jAlbum based upon creation of web photoalbums/website. They also have links into a discussion forum as well as eflora of india/book sales/"drill down" data tables to identify and search plants trees etc. also on the front page there is the option to send in data as well as photographs. It all makes for an easier way of improving accessibility and voluntary input for either sending photographs or identifying existing photographs.

Ours seems to be a forum based site that appears to lack the technical infrastructure to include the "passionate" bits etc on the front page.

Yes advertisement is good but we have to ensure that our site is capable of the required expansion and data inputs to do justice to the readerships expectations first. People tend to "do/follow leaders" when its easier and laid out in front of them so they don't have to think or go wading through distracting articles. I feel that there is just as much willingness and dedication there amongst our online members perhaps we have to facilitate it so that its channelled beneficially.